香港新浪網 MySinaBlog
« 上一篇 | 下一篇 »
hkleftist | 18th Nov 2006, 05:03 AM | 社會主義 | (1024 Reads)
尼泊爾毛派簽定和平協議後的訪問(全譯)

原文(英語)http://espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio/Prachanda:%20Our%20Revolution%20Won/1431107
hkleftist譯

普拉昌達: 我們的革命已勝利

2006-11

意大利《快訊週報》(L'espresso)記者Alessandro Gilioli
在簽定歷史性協議後對尼泊爾毛派遊擊隊領袖的獨家訪問

記者:普拉昌達(Prachanda)主席,讓我們先談一談現時局勢,戰事終於結束,你們進入加德滿都。從交通到街道清潔,毛派警察正管理大部份城市事務 ,你的海報四處可見,你們就好像經已勝利,對嗎?

普拉昌達:總得來說是對的,但也並非完全如此。我們的革命還未完全成功。對於改變社會經濟結構以及增加民眾的權力,我們做了大量的工作,現時我們是全國主要的政治力量。我想,我們已經完成了60%的目標,餘下的40%將會隨著國會選舉而完成。


記者:這需要多少時間?

普拉昌達:我想需要一年時間,我們正嘗試在6-7個月內舉行國會選舉。在這段期間內,全國將會有巨大的社會經濟變遷,我認為我們勝利在望。

記者:那下一步又如何?

普拉昌達:我們提議建立一個共和聯盟,包含民主派力量。這個聯盟不僅有左翼,同時亦包括自由派及激進派。我們希望聯合全國共和力量對抗君主專政。

記者:你們會否以公投或選舉國會來建立共和政府?

普拉昌達:直到現時,真的有可能進行國會選舉,全民公投在諸如議會黨的其他政黨中還有分歧,現時還未可行。我們贊成公投,我們對此並無問題,但國會選舉是主要的議題。

記者:那賈南德拉皇朝會如何?

普拉昌達:這完全取決於他如何看待國王角色這問題。國王將不再有任何政治角色,皇朝將會完全被廢除。如果他能認同群眾的祈望,那麼賈南德拉便能作為一個普 通公民繼續在尼泊爾生活。假如他不認同,嘗試製造事端阻礙建立共和國,那麼他將會被粉碎。國家可能會給他一些土地及財產,但他一定要遠離政治。

記者:你估計毛派會奪得國會多少百份比的議席?

普拉昌達:我想大多數民眾會投我們一票。超過50%的選票應該會選我們的黨。在農村地區估計有超過80%的民眾會支持我們。在城市地區以及特萊 (Terai) 情況比較複雜。我們現正盡力贏取這些地區的民眾支持。無論如何,我想毛派共產黨會取得全國50%民眾的支持。包含民主派、共和派、激進派及左翼力量在內, 總體將會取得75%的選票。

記者:假若尼國共產黨,包括毛派贏得選舉,你估計美國政府會否容許這樣的新政府?你會否害怕出現1970智利政變的情況?

普拉昌達:這是很嚴峻的問題,美國在亞洲的代表亦嘗試阻礙尼泊爾的和平進程,他們經常支持國王並反對民主。美國大使莫健(James Moriarty )仍然四出各地叫人們不要相信毛派,說毛派是"ad".因此,中情局可能密謀反對我們的運動,我們正認真準備任何可能的情況。他們將不能阻礙共和國以及民 主的進程。

記者:假如毛派獲超過50%國會議席,你們會否自行籌組政府?

普拉昌達:不會。我們會嘗試聯合其他左翼及激進民主派力量共同進發,我們需要團結,籍此使國家在繁榮中發展。但若我們毛派贏得選舉,我們也很自然會要求共和國的總統席位。


記者:你個人有何打算?

普拉昌達:黨會決定這些事情,但就個人來說,我對當總統並不感興趣,我想幹的是改變這個國家的社會經濟制度,而非我個人進入政府甚或當總統。

記者:你認為現時在尼泊爾最需抓緊的改革是甚麼?

普拉昌達:首先,我們希望改變230年來的封建國家制度,重建成一個新聯邦制度,將國家建制急速民主化。我們希望擁有一個聯邦制特色的政府,並建立9-10個自治區域。期間我們將會優先進行革命性的土地改革。我們要奪取封建大地主的土地,並將這些土地分給窮人。

記者:不論在尼泊爾抑或國際社會,仍有很多人認為你們毛派並非民主政黨。他們覺得你們容許多黨政治只不過是一個奪取權力的策略,你怎樣解答這個問題?

普拉昌達:對,我確實聽到很多類似的聲音。但我再次重申,我們真的相信社會主義甚或無產階級專政,這應當是多黨競爭的。我們得出這樣的決定是經過在黨內大 量討論的。在我們的理解裡,沒有多黨競爭,現代社會就無法建立。但對我們來說有一個很重要的問題,這就是民主以及多黨制是為誰而設的,我們看到很多不同的 民主制度只是為少數階級或區域團體而設,對大多數人毫無幫助。相對而言,我們要求一種真正能使群眾獲益的民主。這是我們理想中的民主,而這並非一種手段或 戰略。說那種話的人都是經常站在地主、資本家那邊。戰爭販子經常會轟炸民眾(就如在伊拉克或阿富汗),但他們並不真正民主,我們不是他們!

記者:在全世界上是否有些領袖你會感到比較接近?例如巴西的盧拉,委內瑞拉的查韋斯,南非的曼德拉......

普拉昌達:主觀來說,這些領袖比那些赤裸的資產階級政客更接近我們。但就意識形態來說,他們代表中產階級,與我們是不同的。我們代表人民群眾,代表受苦及被壓迫的民眾。

記者:卡斯特羅又如何呢?

普拉昌達:我們與卡斯特羅並不很接近。在人民戰爭中,我們從格瓦拉那裡獲得一些靈感,但現在我們希望打造自己的道路,我們希望將群眾運動的科學帶到新境 界。當然,你所提及的精英們也是跟帝國主義及美國霸權鬥爭的,但在意識形態方面,我不感到與他們接近。坦白說,我們的認識基礎是與全球任何一個共產黨都不 同的。我們嘗試根據21世紀的需要來演繹馬克思主義,為此我們與全球其他社會主義者、共產主義者及左翼運動辯論。這不僅對南亞十分重要,對全球民眾也同樣 重要。

記者:有人說你像柬埔寨的波爾布特......

普拉昌達:不,我們與他們完全不同。雖然波爾布特有良好的動機去解放被壓迫的群眾,但他的戰略及政策卻是完全錯誤的。我們黨內對紅色高棉有很嚴肅的討論, 對秘魯毛派也是如此。我們跟他們完全不同,我們不是教條主義者,不是宗派主義者,也不是因循守舊的人。我們希望能靈活適應環境,從而認識新的事物。

記者:你覺得反全球化及反世貿運動如何?

普拉昌達:在意識形態上我們是不同的,但我們對反全球化運動很感興趣並支持他們。

記者:共產主義在今天還合理嗎?

普拉昌達:這是一個很大的問題,從馬克思、列寧到希望將馬克思主義在半殖民地國家運用的毛澤東。現在我們仍然需要馬克思主義,但需依據21世紀的需要。我 們運用科學的馬克思主義認識很多新事物,我們以此去理解社會、經濟及科技的變化,毫無教條主義或宗派主義。我們希望發展出一套與上世紀不同的新理論。當我 們走進政府時,我們的經驗使每一個人都感到驚訝。但要這樣做,是需要外地群眾的支持。這是為何我希望向全球所有反封建及反帝的眾求助。尼泊爾現正在歷史的 轉捩點,窮人為公義平等與專制者鬥爭。雖然我們只是南亞一個很細小的國家,但我想我們的革命是可以影響全球的。我們不但為尼泊爾而戰鬥,我們同時也是為全 球群眾而戰鬥,我們需要各位的支持及貢獻。

記者:當今的中國已經轉向資本主義,為何你們還自稱毛澤東主義者?何以你們不改改稱呼,就像16年前的意大利共產主義者所幹的一樣。

普拉昌達:在人民戰爭之前,我們數度改名。我們可以因應形勢而改名,對此沒有教條。但我們認為毛澤東發展出一套非常重要的哲學,即使中國已經變色,不再跟 隨毛澤東主義,但在毛澤東主義中的一些意識形態觀點仍對今天的反壓迫鬥爭很有用。因此,現時我們並不打算改名。將來或許會。

記者:你覺得從現在到10-20年後的尼泊爾會怎樣發展?

普拉昌達:我們的國家和人民有很多繁榮的機會,我們現在很窮並不是因為我們缺乏天然資源。我們貧窮是由於封建國王賈南德拉強加的政策。多得從喜瑪拉雅山上 流下大量水源,我們擁有水力發電的資源;我們擁有妙絕的山嶺、歷史宗教名勝以及令人讚嘆的天然公園,讓我們能從旅遊業中獲得巨大收入,更別說農業,特萊是 很有潛力的肥沃土地,我們可以成為南亞最富足的國家。我們需要的是運輸、高新科技計劃、基建以及許多的勇氣。我們將在十年內完全改變劇本,將尼泊爾重建成 繁榮的國家。20年後,我們將變得與瑞士相似,這是我對尼泊爾的目標。

記者:這只會在外國投資者相信共產政府的情況下才可能發生......

普拉昌達:沒錯,我也知道。我們不能無視世界自由化的進程。因此,我們將在這個國家實行混合型經濟。現時我們沒說要計劃實行全面的社會主義經濟,但亦非盲目跟從西方自由主義。我們會一有些國民優先的項目,我們也歡迎外來投資者,運用外來資本建設更美好的尼泊爾。

記者:普拉昌達先生,據稱你是一個很有經驗的政治家,並已在人民戰爭中已當了游擊隊領袖達10年,在深山裡,每天有成千皇室軍隊正在追捕你,你在戰爭中是怎麼生活的?

普拉昌達:面對危險是十分困難的。有時我會在印度逗留,其他的時間會在尼泊爾不同的區域中進行戰鬥。我需要經常轉移。轉移意味著安全。那裡有很多難題、意外......

記者:在數週之前,你的個人生活對於全世界來說還是很神秘的,你可以多介紹一下自己的事情嗎?

普拉昌達:你知道我沒興趣談論自己的事......我是出生在接近波卡拉(Pokhara)的Kaski區一個中產階級的家庭。及後我的夫母到了特萊的奇 旺(Chitwan)區。那裡是一個新發展的地區,並不傳統,人們都來自尼泊爾不同的地方。這是對我十分重要的經驗。我在哪裡就讀高校,及後又在大專修讀 農業科學。畢業後我當了一個高校老師。同時我亦修讀公共行政碩士。我就在那時候參加了運動,並成為一個全職活動家,並且成為加德滿都的政治幹部。我在首都 生活超過十年,當人民戰爭開始後,我進入了深山。

記者:你是如何變成共產主義者的?

普拉昌達:首先,我並的家庭不是很富有,我的父母需要辛勞地工作,生活十分困難。所以我開始問自己為何沒有社會公義,為何有些人生活富裕而另一些人卻沒錢 應付基本的食物、衣服及教育。第二,我在高校時大約有14-15歲,那時正在就共產主義、馬克思主義以及中國革命進行大辯論。我所就讀的學校裡其中一位出 名的老師是共產黨員。他是很好的人,站在窮人一方。即使我知道他是共產黨員,我仍十分喜愛他。當他告訴我他的身份後,我開始對共產主義產生興趣,並經常向 他請教。有一天,他給了我一本毛語錄以及一將中國主席的大海報。

記者:你相信宗教嗎?你自己有沒有宗教信仰?

普拉昌達:不,完全不相信,但在人民軍中有些人信奉印度教、佛教及其他宗教。我們也尊重群眾信奉的所有宗教,即使我們的黨教導幹部一套更科學及世俗的觀點。

記者:是否有一些電影、著作或音樂是你特別喜歡的?

普拉昌達:總的來說,我閱讀印度及美國的文學,當然,我也閱讀大量世界各地的政治報章。當我還是老師的時候,我需要跳舞及演奏樂器。再早些當我還是學生時,我愛到戲院裡看一些印度傳奇電認,但也會看一些美國電影。

記者:例如呢?

普拉昌達:我最愛《萬夫莫敵》(Spartacus),你知道這套電影嗎?這電影出自史丹利庫柏立克(Stanley Kubrik),搭檔寇克道格拉斯(Kirk Douglas),是關於古羅馬奴隸革命的。

Copyright L'espresso 2006

-------------------------------------------
http://espresso.repubblica.it/de ... ution%20Won/1431107

Prachanda: Our Revolution Won
by Alessandro Gilioli
An exclusive interview with the Nepal's Maoist guerrilla Leader after the historical peace agreement

President Prachanda, let's start with the current situation. The war  is finally over, you entered Kathmandu and now the Maoist police are  managing most things in the city, from the traffic through to street cleaning. Your   posters are everywhere. It seems to me that you've already won the  war. Is that true?

«We can not exactly say that it is totally true, but on the whole it  is. Our revolution has not been completely victorious as yet.  Changing the social economic structure and empowering the masses, in  this sense, we have done an enormous amount and at the moment we are  the main political force in the country. I think that we have  achieved almost 60 percent of our goals , the remaining 40 per cent  will be achieved with the election of the Costituent Assembly».

How long will it take?

«I think about a year. We are trying to have the Constituent  Assembly's election within 6-7 months. During this period, there will be big socioeconomic changes within the country and I think we'll come out victorious».

What are the next steps?

«We have proposed to form a republican front of all the democratic  forces, not just from the left wing but also from the liberals and radicals. We want to unite all the republican forces in the country against the feudal autocracy».

Will you achieve a Republican form of government through a referendum or through the elelction of a Constituent Assembly?

«Right now there is a real possibility of an election for the Constituent Assembly. A referendum is not plausible at the moment as the other parties , like the Congress Party, are divided on this issue. We agree on a referendum, we don't have any problem with this idea, but the  election of the Constituent Assembly is the main  issue».

What will be the destiny of King Gyanendra?

«It all depends on what one intends as the role of the King in itself. There will not be any political role for the king. The monarchy will be  completely abolished in this country. If he agrees to the will of the masses,  Gyanendra could live in Nepal as a normal citizen. If he does not agree, if he tries to do anything to sabotage the Republic, he will be crushed. Maybe the State will give him some land, property, but he must stay away from politics.».

How many votes, in percentage, will the Maoist party get in the elections for  the Constituent Assembly?

«I think the majority of the population will vote for us. More than 50 percent should be for our party. In rural areas, according to our estimates, more than 80 per cent of the masses support our party.  In  urban areas and in the Terai there is a mixed situation. So now we are trying our best to win over population in urban areas and on the Terai's plains.  Anyway, I think that Maoist party  will be supported by more than 50 percent of the country. Overall the  democratic, republican, radical and left forces will gain more than 75 per cent of the vote».

Do you think that US government will accept the new government of Nepal if the communists party, Maoist included, win the elections?  Aren't you scared  of a coup d'état like Chile in the Seventies?

«This is a very serious issue. The representatives of the US in Asia also tried to sabotage the peace process in Nepal, they have always supported the king and opposed democracy. The US Ambassador James
Moriarty is still travelling to many regions telling everybody not to believe the Maoists, that the Maoists are ad... So, the CIA may  conspire against our movement, we are serious and we are prepared for
anything. They will not be able to stop the march to a republic and democracy».

If the Maoist party gains more than 50 percent of the vote, will you  form a government on you own?

«No. We will try to unite other left and radical democratic forces and move forward together, we need a coalition, in order to develop the country in a prosperously. But if we Maoists win the elections, we will naturally claim the presidency of the Republic».

And what about yourself, Mr Prachanda?

«Well, the party will decide about that, but personally I'm not really interested in becoming president. What I want do to do is to change the entire socioeconomic system in our country, but not with myself in government or as the president».

What do you hold as the most urgent reforms needed by Nepal?

«First of all we want to restructure the whole state into a new federal system. We want to change the set up of past 230 year feudal state, we want to radically democratize the state structure. We  want to have a federal style of government with 9 or 10 autonomous regions. In the mean time our priority will be a revolutionary land reform. We want to seize the lands of the big feudal landlords.  We want to seize their land and distribute it to the  poor».

There are people, both in Nepal and abroad, that still believe that  you Maoists are not yet a democratic party. They think you have  accepted a multi-party system just as a strategy to take over power. How do you answer this?

«Yes, I have heard these voices. But yet again I reiterate that we really believe in Socialism, and even in a proletarian dictatorship, there should be multi-party competition. We came to this decision through intensive debate within our party. Our understanding is that without multi-party competition a  modern society can not be built. But there is one very important issue for us: who is this democracy and multi-party system for? We have witnessed many different democratic systems which do nothing to help the majority of the population, but just few classes or regional groups. On the contrary, we  want democracy to be really to benefit the masses.  This is our idea of democracy and it is not some tactic or strategy. The people who say this, are the people who have always been on the side of the landlords, the capitalists, the war mongers that bomb the masses (like in Iraq and Afghanistan),  well, they are not really democratic. This is not us!».

Is there any leader around the world to whom you feel close? Maybe Lula of Brazil, Chavez of Venezuela or Mandela of South Africa...

«I think that those leaders are objectively closer to us than others who are blatantly capitalistic. But ideologically we are fiiferent from them as they represent only the middle classes. We represent the people, the victims and the oppressed masses.»

What about Fidel Castro?

«We are not really that close to Fidel. We took some inspiration from Che Guevara when we needed it during the Peoples War, but right now we want to forge our own way, we want to take the science of the masses  to a new level. Of corse, the people you mentioned are an élite in the fight against imperialism and the US superpower, but in an ideologically I don't feel close to them. Actually, our understandings standpoint is different from any communist party in the world. We are trying to interpretate marxism according to the  needs of 21 st century and we are debating this with the socialist, communist and leftist movements all over the world. This is important not just for South Asia, but for the masses throughout the planet».

Some say that you are similar to Pol Pot's Khmer rouges in Cambodia...

«No, no, we are completely different from them. Although Pol Pot might have had good intentions of freeing the oppressed masses, his strategy and his policies were completely wrong. We had a very serious discussion in the party about the Khmer rouges, and also about the Peruvian Maoists, and we think that we are completely different from them. We are not dogmatists, we are not sectarians, we are not traditionalists. We want to be ever more dynamic, adapting to our environment, understanding modernity».

What do you think about the No Global and Anti-WTO international movement?

«In an ideological sense we are different, but we are very interesting the No global movement and support it».

Does Communism make sense today?

«It's a big question, starting with Marx, Lenin and Mao Ze Dong, who wanted to apply the marxist teachings in semicolonial countries. Now, we still need marxism, but in accordance to the needs of the 21 st century. We have to apply  marxist science in a very new context, understanding social, economic and also technological changes, without dogmatism and without  sectarianism. We are trying to develop a completely new concept, different from what happened in the past century. When we are in the government, our experiment will surprise everybody. But to do that,  we need the support of all the masses from abroad. That's why I want to appeal to all the anti feudal and and anti imperialists throughout the world. In Nepal we are at an historical turning point, the poor are fighting against autocracy, for justice and equality. Even if we are a small country in South Asia, we think that our revolution can have impact all over the world. We are fighting not only for Nepal but for the masses of the entire world. We need help and the contributions from everybody».

Why do you still call yourself Maoists, while China is turning to capitalism? Why don't you change your name, like the Italian Communists did 16 years a go?

«We changed our name several times in the past, before the Peoples War. We can change name according to the situation, there is no dogmatism about it. But we think that Mao developed a very important philosophy. Even though China has changed its colours and no longer follows Maoism any more, there are some ideological points in Maoism that even today hold good against repression. So, at the moment we are ot going to change names. Maybe in the future».

How do you image Nepal in 10- 20 years from now?

«Our country and our people have lots of opportunities for prosperity. We are now poor, but not because we don't have natural and human resources. We are poor because of the policy enforced by the feudal King Gyanendra. We have resorses for hydroelectric power, thanks to the large amount of water coming off the Himalayas. Tourism could also create enormous income for us, thanks to our marvellous mountains, our historical and religious sites and our astonishing natural parks. Not to mention our agriculture, the land in Terai is potentially very fertile With good government we can become one of  the richest country in South Asia. But we need transport, hi tech and scientific projects, infrastructures, and a lot of courage. In ten years we'll change the whole scenario, rebuilding this country to  prosperity. In 20 years we could be simular to Switzerland. This is my goal for Nepal».

This will happen only if foreign investors trust a communist  government...

«Yes, I  know. We cannot ignore the whole process of liberalization in the world. So, we will apply mixed economics to this country. Right now, we are no saying that we plan a total socialist economy, though we will not  blindly follow western liberalism. We have some national priorities and we will welcome foreign investors, using capital from abroad for the well being of Nepal».

Mr Prachanda, you speak as an experienced politician, but you have lived as a guerilla leader for the past 10 years, during the Peoples War, in the mountains, with thousands of Royal Army soldiers looking for you every day. How was your life during the war?

«Well, it was very difficult, facing many dangers. Sometimes I stayed in India, other times in the various regions of Nepal where we were fighting. I had to be mobile, you know: mobility means security in
those conditions. There were so many problems, incidents...».

Till a few weeks a go, your life and personality were a real mystery to the whole world. Who are you?


«You know, I'm not so interested in talking about my self... In any case, I was born to a lower middle class family from the Kaski district, near Pokhara. Later, my parents moved to the Chitwan district, in Terai. It was a newly developed district, not traditional, with different people from all over Nepal. This was a very important experience for me. I studied up through high school there, and later I went to college, where I studied Agricultural Science. I graduated and became a high school teacher. In the meantime, I was studied for a masters in Public Administration. But during that time, I joined the movement and became a full time activist and cadre in politics in Kathmandu. I lived in the capital for more than 10 years, then I moved to the mountains, when the Peoples War began».

How did you become Communist?

«First of all, my family was not at all rich.  My parents had to work hard, life was very difficult for us. So I began asking myself why there was no social justice, why there were rich people and people without money for proper food, for proper clothes, for a proper education. Secondly, at high school, when I was 14-15 years old, there was a great debate about communism, marxism and China's revolution. In my school one of my favorite teachers was a member of the Communist party. He was a very good man, on the side of the poor.  I liked him a lot even before knowing he was communist. When he told me, I became curious about communism and began asking him questions.  One day, he gave to me  a small booklet with quotations of Mao Ze Dong, and a big photo of the Chinese President»

Do you believe in any religion? Are you religiuos?

«No, not at all. But in the Peoples Army there are Hindus, Buddhists and others, and we respect all the religious beliefs of the masses, even if our party teaches its officials and cadres a more scientific and secular point of view».

Do you love any particular movies, books or music?

«On the whole, I read Indian and American literature, and obviously I  read a lot of political newspapers from all over the world. When I was a teacher I used to dance and to play some musical instruments.
Earlier, when I was a student, I liked to go to the cinema, watching movies based on indian legends, but also some American films».

For instance?

«Well, my favourite was "Spartacus", you know? An historical movie by
Stanley Kubrik, with Kirk Douglas, about a revolution by slaves in
Ancient Rome».



Copyright L'espresso 2006